Victim of Changes: When Favorite Bands Jump the Shark? (Prog / Classic Rock / Metal)

[Curwen Member Find all posts View Profile Close Curwen]

I love talking about the latter periods of certain bands controversial for genre experimentation and/or shifts towards pop commercialism.

How long did you stick with your favorite bands? (eg: Did Iron Maiden lose you at NO PRAYER FOR THE DYING or THE X FACTOR? Did you ever return to BATHORY after REQUIEM/OCTAGON?)
Which albums went "too far" for you?
Which much-critiqued albums are you a staunch defender of? (eg: CF's Cold Lake, JP's Turbo, ELP's Love Beach, any 70's prog band who went pop in the 80's.)

Decibel rarely posts new entries in their "Justify Your Shitty Taste" column. I'd love to hear where you stand on bands' careers & their "letdown albums."

(More random examples: Did you follow Tangerine Dream into the 80's, MINISTRY into the 2000's? PARADISE LOST after HOST? Septic Flesh after Revolution DNA? My Dying Bride after 34.78888% complete? YES after Tormato? GENESIS after Duke? Trevor Rabin-era YES or Moraz-era MOODY BLUES? Do you think DAUDI BALDRS is Burzum's peak artistic expression? Anyone remember back when IN FLAMES released folk-inflicted melodic death metal before the nu-metal aughts? Did you reopen your arms to CELTIC FROST with Vanity/Nemesis? How long did you stick with ULVER? etc etc... Be as mainstream or obscure as you like.)

[Tom Clark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tom Clark]

Very cool idea for a thread. Looking forward to seeing what others post.

Genesis are one of my favorite bands and that includes the Collins-led three-piece era. It's a common misconception that once Gabriel left they immediately became a pop band which is absurd. The shift in sound was gradual and they never stopped being progressive. They continued to write interesting songs, just in a more streamlined fashion and the last album to feature Collins, 1991' We Can't Dance, even featured moments in the two 10 minute epics "Driving the Last Spike" and "Fading Lights" that recall the 70's.

The same could be said of Rush and their 80's period. Power Windows and Hold Your Fire happen to be two of my favorites. The later being one of the bands most derided, it's such a lush slice of late 80's synthpop with Rush's trademark musical wizardry. Lifeson is well represented with a plethora of great solos and Peart is beating the ever loving shit out of his kit.

Did you reopen your arms to CELTIC FROST with Vanity/Nemesis?]

To be honest, the issue I've always had with Cold Lake was never that it was "glam" or whatever you want to call it, but that it was just really boring. Say what you will about glam, but at least it has hooks. Most of the stuff on Cold Lake just goes in one ear and out the other. And Tom's vocals are really bad. The chorus to "Cherry Orchards" is really quite funny. Vanity/Nemesis is a solid album and still underrated in the grand scheme of things. The real Frost comeback came later with the mighty Monotheist.

[Andrew Monroe Pallid Hands Find all posts View Profile Close Andrew Monroe]

Judas Priest lost me at British Steel. They had made an astonishing run of albums with Sad Wings Of Destiny, Sin After Sin, Stained Class and Hell Bent For Leather....hugely influential albums that pretty much set the blueprint for progressive, melodic and melancholy heavy metal from that point on. Then, due to I guess a perceived failure in commercial success, they massively dumbed down their sound with British Steel. Yes, they hit the charts with that, but holy shit, it's so simple compared to the previous albums. Getting Dave (perv) Holland on drums with his ham-handed primitive style epitomizes the shocking change. Les Binks and Simon Phillips kick his ass so hard it's pathetic.

[Curwen Member Find all posts View Profile Close Curwen]

Genesis are one of my favorite bands and that includes the Collins-led three-piece era.

The "Patrick Bateman era" as I like to think of it.
Where do you stand on CALLING ALL STATIONS?

The same could be said of Rush and their 80's period. Power Windows and Hold Your Fire happen to be two of my favorites.

PW has amazingly lush production. I'm of the opinion that RUSH was one of the few prog bands who weren't compromised by the 80's.

TEST FOR ECHO & COUNTERPARTS, on the other hand, I find to be their low points. Amazingly uninspired.

The only other "prog" band whose later material I find merit in is Pink Floyd. I objectively understand MOMENTARY LAPSE & DIVISION BELL as lackluster albums but still find them aurally enjoyable with "Sorrow" and "High Hopes" being two of the all-time best album closers.

Where I find myself most alone is in my appreciation of THE ENDLESS RIVER. It's my favorite PF album to listen to from beginning-to-end since ANIMALS. I always found Rick Wright to be underappreciated as a contributor to PF and think TER is a wonderful epilogue to Floyd's discography. I don't know if it's just that I'm more inclined to listen to ambient-ish music than those who describe it with words like "filler" or "background music." People say TER is a cynical cash grab but I find it incredibly moving.

Vanity/Nemesis is a solid album and still underrated in the grand scheme of things. The real Frost comeback came later with the mighty Monotheist.

Indeed. Though I recall Monotheist being an incredibly divisive album which a lot of my metal comrades at the time absolutely hated. Never understood the hate. I mean I can understand someone not connecting to something, but I don't know why Monotheist inspired such anger.

[Curwen Member Find all posts View Profile Close Curwen]

Judas Priest lost me at British Steel. They had made an astonishing run of albums with Sad Wings Of Destiny, Sin After Sin, Stained Class and Hell Bent For Leather....hugely influential albums that pretty much set the blueprint for progressive, melodic and melancholy heavy metal from that point on. Then, due to I guess a perceived failure in commercial success, they massively dumbed down their sound with British Steel.

I totally get where you're coming from, even if my favorite Priest album is SCREAMING FOR VENGEANCE. I've never found British Steel to be that satisfying an album. But there's something about VENGEANCE I find endlessly listenable as an album-oriented experience. Some of Halford's best lyrics too, IMO.

[David H Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close David H]

I totally get where you're coming from, even if my favorite Priest album is SCREAMING FOR VENGEANCE. I've never found British Steel to be that satisfying an album. But there's something about VENGEANCE I find endlessly listenable as an album-oriented experience. Some of Halford's best lyrics too, IMO.

I also never really liked British Steel, and I love Priest. I thought Screaming was a nice rebound, and I actually really enjoy Defenders of the Faith. Turbo? Ummm....no. Now, in my highly unpopular opinion, Iron Maiden started on their downhill slide with Number of the Beast. I LOVE Paul Di'anno and never really liked Anthony Newley's...oops, I mean Bruce Dickinson's vocals. There are a couple of good cuts on Number of the Beast but I completely lost interest pretty quickly after that.

[Tom Clark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tom Clark]

Where do you stand on CALLING ALL STATIONS?

I like to pretend that album doesn't exist.

PW has amazingly lush production. I'm of the opinion that RUSH was one of the few prog bands who weren't compromised by the 80's.

TEST FOR ECHO & COUNTERPARTS, on the other hand, I find to be their low points. Amazingly uninspired.

I loved when they brought "Marathon" back into the setlist for I believe it was the Time Machine tour. "Emotion Detector" is one of my favorite Rush songs. They never played that one live, sadly. Would have sounded amazing.

Disagree completely on Counterparts which I've always loved. Nice and beefy production.

The only other "prog" band whose later material I find merit in is Pink Floyd. I objectively understand MOMENTARY LAPSE & DIVISION BELL as lackluster albums but still find them aurally enjoyable with "Sorrow" and "High Hopes" being two of the all-time best album closers.

I have always liked A Momentary Lapse of Reason, and the oh-so-detestable socially conscious ballad "On the Turning Away" has always sounded pleasant to my ears. Yes, the lyrics are symptomatic of an unfortunate trend of the times, which Genesis sadly carried over into the 90's on their worst song, but again, lush is the word that comes to mind. Very soothing.

[Mark Tolch Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mark Tolch]

The "Patrick Bateman era" as I like to think of it.

The only other "prog" band whose later material I find merit in is Pink Floyd. I objectively understand MOMENTARY LAPSE & DIVISION BELL as lackluster albums but still find them aurally enjoyable with "Sorrow" and "High Hopes" being two of the all-time best album closers.

Where I find myself most alone is in my appreciation of THE ENDLESS RIVER. It's my favorite PF album to listen to from beginning-to-end since ANIMALS. I always found Rick Wright to be underappreciated as a contributor to PF and think TER is a wonderful epilogue to Floyd's discography. I don't know if it's just that I'm more inclined to listen to ambient-ish music than those who describe it with words like "filler" or "background music." People say TER is a cynical cash grab but I find it incredibly moving.

I would love The Endless River much more if it was more cohesive; as it stands, the mix on it emphasizes what it really is; a compilation of outtakes. Where it shines is showcasing Rick Wright's contribution to the band, like going back and remastering the catalogue with the keys tracks cranked to the front of the stage. What does it in, though, is in trying to jam a "close to Floyd signature riff" into each track. And that last track...oof. "Dis each other on sight"? This is why Floyd were stronger lyrically with Waters.

But I do agree, even though I'm not a fan of Momentary Lapse, that Sorrow is a fantastic tune. And High Hopes is probably one of my favourite Floyd songs of all time, never mind just later era. Too bad that for me, Why Won't You Talk To Me is the only other song I like off of that album (though it was a wonderful tour).



I'm hard-pressed to come up with favourite bands I can put into this thread that aren't obvious; it's easy to say that CCR jumped the shark with Pendulum. I guess Bad Religion, who are in my top 5, jumped the shark once they put out Stranger Than Fiction. Recipe For Hate took a long time to grow on me and wasn't a favourite, but Stranger Than Fiction was the first indicator of a downhill slide, even if they have a number of songs I liked off of the later albums.

[Darcy Parker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Darcy Parker]

Suicidal Tendencies lost me after How Will I Laugh Tomorrow When I Can't Even Smile Today. Once Mike started up with Infectious Grooves, ST just stopped sounding like ST, they lost that Venice Hardcore sound, got too smooth.

The Beastie Bous lost it with To The 5 Boroughs. Maybe three good tracks and the rest of the album being a political temper tantrum was just shit. MCA had his head right up his ass once he went Buddhist.

[Curwen Member Find all posts View Profile Close Curwen]

And that last track...oof. "Dis each other on sight"? This is why Floyd were stronger lyrically with Waters.

I don't think anyone would dispute that! On the other hand, even Gilmour's sappiest pop songs are more musically graceful than:

[Mark Tolch Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mark Tolch]

I don't think anyone would dispute that! On the other hand, even Gilmour's sappiest pop songs are more musically graceful than:

Speaking of albums I pretend don't exist. :D

[Mark Tolch Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mark Tolch]

Suicidal Tendencies lost me after How Will I Laugh Tomorrow When I Can't Even Smile Today. Once Mike started up with Infectious Grooves, ST just stopped sounding like ST, they lost that Venice Hardcore sound, got too smooth.

The Beastie Bous lost it with To The 5 Boroughs. Maybe three good tracks and the rest of the album being a political temper tantrum was just shit. MCA had his head right up his ass once he went Buddhist.

Agreed on Suicidal. I know lots of folks who don't go past the first album, but some others who think that Lights...Camera was the turning point. I do like the song You Can't Bring Me Down, but How Will I Laugh is where I stop.

The Beastie Boys...I think that 5 Boroughs is their worst album. But I think they pulled it back together with Hot Sauce Committee, which I love.

[Matt H. Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt H.]

The Jon Spencer Blues Explosion lost me around "Plastic Fang", although I thought "Acme" was a big step-down from "Now I Got Worry" (it still had some good songs). I thought maybe "Fang" was just a dud, but then it was confirmed that they lost me when I picked up "Damage". Haven't tried anything since.

[Darcy Parker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Darcy Parker]

Agreed on Suicidal. I know lots of folks who don't go past the first album, but some others who think that Lights...Camera was the turning point. I do like the song You Can't Bring Me Down, but How Will I Laugh is where I stop.

The Beastie Boys...I think that 5 Boroughs is their worst album. But I think they pulled it back together with Hot Sauce Committee, which I love.

Hot Sauce Committee was better mostly due to MCA's health declining and not allowing him as much input, which is kinda sad, but if it made better music...

[Tom Clark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tom Clark]

Did Iron Maiden lose you at NO PRAYER FOR THE DYING or THE X FACTOR?

Pretty sure I said this in the Maiden thread but No Prayer for the Dying to be has always been a victim of self-consciousness. It's like Harris was trying way to hard to write a more stripped-back album after the more progressive and conceptual Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son and it shows. There's a handful of quality songs, but a lot of it is just sort of "there". The X Factor has the same self-consciousness problem, just in the opposite way. A lot of The X Factor sounds like Harris trying way to hard to prove that Maiden didn't need Bruce to sound "epic". And Blaze is a fine singer in his own right, but in the grand scheme of things was probably not the best fit for Maiden. Just look at video of them playing "Sign of the Cross" and "The Clansman" from Virtual XI with Bruce and it should become immediately apparent.