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  • #16
    I definitely enjoyed the first two Nolan films, though I found The Dark Knight a little on the long side.

    In any event, I'll rewatch Batman Returns. Somebody mentioned the penguin's makeup being gross, and I definitely remember that. For some reason, the only other thing that stands out is that you can't scratch a CD like a record.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Darcy Parker View Post
      If you seriously don't think there was any style or grit to The Dark Knight or Captain America: The Winter Soldier, I would seriously question if you've even seen them.
      I thought DARK KNIGHT was well done.

      I have not seen WINTER SOLDIER. The Marvel movies just don't interest me. The few I've seen have been good but forgettable. Fun maybe, but not stylish. Rather bland, actually.

      Burton's films have interesting sets in every frame. All the actors have interesting costumes and are full of character. It has a sense of wonder and craft that the modern films just don't have. I guess by grit I mean Burton's films feel tactile and lived in, everything's a little dirty. Artificial, but real. Nolan's films feel glossy, distant and cold. Realistic, but without soul.

      I realize I'm in the minority and that's ok. It's just a preference.
      "When I die, I hope to go to Accra"

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      • #18
        I was a bit underwhelmed when I saw Burton's Batman again recently. What seemed groundbreaking in 89 now seemed a bit pedestrian to me. However, Batman Returns is still pretty fucking amazing. I just love the whole German expressionism feeling and can't believe that a major studio let him do that.

        Of the Nolan movies, I think The Dark Knight is pretty great. It's like a Michael Mann superhero movie. The other two had their merits but were a bit of a mixed bag and I haven't felt the need to rewatch them.

        The only other live action Batman that I enjoy is the 66 movie, but that's for entirely different reasons. I haven't seen many of the animations, but The Dark Knight Returns was pretty good.
        I'm bitter, I'm twisted, James Joyce is fucking my sister.

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        • #19
          I actually like the Burton films better now than I did as a kid. I had the McDonalds toys but I still didn't much like 'em much when I was young. Now they are still a bit bland but they're made at a moment where special effects had gotten really good but CGI was still yet to really make its mark. So it's got a lot of charm and production value on that front. I don't know if it's true but in my memory Batman was the first film to get absolute saturation marketing. Every where you turned for a while there it was Batman.
          "Never let the fact that they are doing it wrong stop you from doing it right." Hyman Mandell.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Scott View Post
            Burton's films have interesting sets in every frame. All the actors have interesting costumes and are full of character. It has a sense of wonder and craft that the modern films just don't have. I guess by grit I mean Burton's films feel tactile and lived in, everything's a little dirty. Artificial, but real. Nolan's films feel glossy, distant and cold. Realistic, but without soul.
            I'm on board with this, Scott. I love Burton's BATMAN; I really like Keaton's performance in the lead role, which was something of a shock given his association with comedy to that point. And I like Nicholson's performance as the Joker. It's not quite as deranged as Cesar Romero's but there's something deeply unpredictable and utterly slimy in the way that Nicholson plays the part. Some great supporting actors too (eg, Palance).

            I like the Nolan pictures too but they're a different beast entirely - very 21st Century, an age of high sheen surfaces and the smell of new electronics as opposed to axle grease, typewriter ink and petrol fumes. 'Gritty' means something different in the 2000s as compared with '89.

            What Dom said about saturation marketing rings true in my memories of '89. It seemed Burton's BATMAN was everywhere during that year. I've still got the foldout poster magazine that I bought in the foyer of the cinema when I went to see the film.
            'You know, I'd almost forgotten what your eyes looked like. Still the same. Pissholes in the snow'

            http://www.paul-a-j-lewis.com (my photography website)
            'All explaining in movies can be thrown out, I think': Elmore Leonard

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Paul L View Post
              I'm on board with this, Scott. I love Burton's BATMAN; I really like Keaton's performance in the lead role, which was something of a shock given his association with comedy to that point. And I like Nicholson's performance as the Joker. It's not quite as deranged as Cesar Romero's but there's something deeply unpredictable and utterly slimy in the way that Nicholson plays the part. Some great supporting actors too (eg, Palance).

              I like the Nolan pictures too but they're a different beast entirely - very 21st Century, an age of high sheen surfaces and the smell of new electronics as opposed to axle grease, typewriter ink and petrol fumes. 'Gritty' means something different in the 2000s as compared with '89.

              What Dom said about saturation marketing rings true in my memories of '89. It seemed Burton's BATMAN was everywhere during that year. I've still got the foldout poster magazine that I bought in the foyer of the cinema when I went to see the film.


              I remember two things about that year; The Who's reunion tour, and BATMAN. And yeah, that advertising was everywhere; the updated logo on t-shirts, toys, etc. And of course, the massive fan freakout over Keaton being cast.

              I would disagree that it's surprising the studio let him do what he did aesthetically with BATMAN RETURNS; by that point, Burton had been hugely successful with Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, and especially Beetlejuice. By the time he rolled his vision around to his first BATMAN film and made the studio a gajillion dollars, I guarantee they weren't looking at set design for the sequel, saying, "It's too German Expressionist". It's a Burton film, and that had obviously worked in spades a few times over. Anyway, I've seen the first one recently, and felt it didn't age well at all, even if the performances aren't bad. I'll give the second one a go again.

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              • #22
                Maybe, but I bet they regretted the fuck out of it later, hence Joel Schumacher's monstrosities. Burton has a producer credit on the first of those, but there's no assistant to him listed in the credits. Compare to the contempory Cabin Boy which he only exec produced yet still has an assistant listed. I think that shows tbe extent of his involvement.
                I'm bitter, I'm twisted, James Joyce is fucking my sister.

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                • #23
                  I loathe superhero films with a passion (Bat-Pussy excepted!) but I've got a lot of time for Batman Returns. It's brilliantly cast and quite subversive for a multiplex-friendly blockbuster. Plus, it's got Christopher Walken pushing Michelle Pfeiffer out of a window! And an army of penguins giving Danny De Vito a viking's funeral! Tod Browning would approve.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by agent999 View Post
                    Maybe, but I bet they regretted the fuck out of it later, hence Joel Schumacher's monstrosities. Burton has a producer credit on the first of those, but there's no assistant to him listed in the credits. Compare to the contempory Cabin Boy which he only exec produced yet still has an assistant listed. I think that shows tbe extent of his involvement.
                    Schumacher was forced to lighten things up due to the massive issues with merchandising tie-ins and advertising partners over Batman Returns. Warner Brothers didn't want to go through the controversies over kid-focused marketing of a non family-friendly film again.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Darcy Parker View Post
                      Schumacher was forced to lighten things up due to the massive issues with merchandising tie-ins and advertising partners over Batman Returns. Warner Brothers didn't want to go through the controversies over kid-focused marketing of a non family-friendly film again.
                      It is REALLY not family-friendly. Was it a straight PG when it came out? It's pretty dark.

                      Anyway, I like to admit when I'm wrong; BATMAN RETURNS holds up far better than Burton's original film. It's pretty flawed, but still, quite an enjoyable watch. I wonder if I really loved the first Batman film and found this one a huge disappointment because it's so different. I do know I saw it in the theatre, and never watched it again until today.

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                      • #26
                        All four of the Batman films are rated PG-13. I couldn't remember and had to look it up. I'm surprised the Schumacher films weren't PG.
                        "When I die, I hope to go to Accra"

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Scott View Post
                          All four of the Batman films are rated PG-13. I couldn't remember and had to look it up. I'm surprised the Schumacher films weren't PG.
                          BATMAN was the first film to get the then-new '12' certificate in the UK, as it was considered too violent for a 'PG' yet obviously appealed to a younger audience. IIRC, all of the Burton and Schumacher films, aside from BATMAN & ROBIN, were cut by the BBFC. I seem to recall that when I saw Burton's BATMAN at the cinema (in the UK, of course), the scene in which Nicholson's Joker fries one of Palance's henchmen with his trick ring/hand buzzer was trimmed slightly, but there's no official listing of this being cut in the BBFC database. (I would imagine it was precut by Warner, much like the hinted fellatio later in the picture.)

                          The BBFC's examiners' report for Burton's BATMAN can be found on the BBFC website as a PDF: https://www.bbfc.co.uk/sites/default...tman_final.pdf
                          'You know, I'd almost forgotten what your eyes looked like. Still the same. Pissholes in the snow'

                          http://www.paul-a-j-lewis.com (my photography website)
                          'All explaining in movies can be thrown out, I think': Elmore Leonard

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ian Jane View Post
                            That cover art is complete shit. All of it. Shit.
                            Agree. And they cropped his bat ears in every one of those. Stupids.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paul L View Post
                              BATMAN was the first film to get the then-new '12' certificate in the UK, as it was considered too violent for a 'PG' yet obviously appealed to a younger audience. IIRC, all of the Burton and Schumacher films, aside from BATMAN & ROBIN, were cut by the BBFC. I seem to recall that when I saw Burton's BATMAN at the cinema (in the UK, of course), the scene in which Nicholson's Joker fries one of Palance's henchmen with his trick ring/hand buzzer was trimmed slightly, but there's no official listing of this being cut in the BBFC database. (I would imagine it was precut by Warner, much like the hinted fellatio later in the picture.)

                              The BBFC's examiners' report for Burton's BATMAN can be found on the BBFC website as a PDF: https://www.bbfc.co.uk/sites/default...tman_final.pdf
                              Cut by the BBFC. What the almighty fuck.

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                              • #30
                                It's still going on. They offer lower certificates if the distributor is willing to cut, hence films like Aquaman, Bumblebee, Death Wish, Equalizer etc. all being cut to get more people in. Admittedly I'd rather eat a dog's arse than watch most of them, but it's the priciple. Just an obsolete organisation trying to retain some semblance of importance.
                                I'm bitter, I'm twisted, James Joyce is fucking my sister.

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