Female Prisoner Scorpion Box set from Arrow in July

[Derrick King Waterfall Puncher Find all posts View Profile Close Derrick King]

No theory, but it isn't just Toei. All the Japanese companies are hard to deal with.

Unfortunately, it is rare for a company to get to see elements before licensing. It just isn't how it is done. I think there may be some outs in contracts for problematic elements, but at a certain point, whether to maintain a relationship with a licensor or if a company has invested too much money, they just can't walk away.

[Adrian Jones Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Adrian Jones]

I figure any future Japanese Blu-rays will look like the Arrow releases (and Snowblood will look like Criterion's]

I doubt it as firstly they have access to the OCN, so why would they go with a low contrast print. Secondly there's a perfectly fine HD video currently on Amazon Jp, so i think that backs up this view.

I'd like Arrow's contact at TOEI, Daichi Yashiki to answer a few questions about the materials that have been supplied!

[Takuma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Takuma]

(and since it has been mentioned a few times, the perceived issues with Criterion's Lady Snowblood are nothing like this. Save for some slight black crush, as a result of coming from a 35mm low-contrast print, I don't think there is anything wrong with that transfer, it has an appropriate range of skin tones, the image isn't washed in teal or yellow or green or blue (save the night scenes) or red. It is more colorful compared to earlier dull brown/grey DVD transfers, but really nothing out of the ordinary [side by side comparison between the two make the Criterion look like it pops more than it actually does.])

I've only seen screencaptures from the Criterion BD so perhaps I should refrain from judging it, but my first reaction was a shock. I did see Lady Snowblood from a good 35mm print just a few months before the Criterion came out, and the BD does not match my impressions of the print at all. I'd be lying if I said I remember exactly how the print looked like, but that's actually the whole point. During the past few years I've seen hundreds of Japanese films from 35mm prints and I've become very familiar with the film look. It's the unusual looking prints, the ones that were poor (a pink print of The Street Fighter), unusual (Evil Dead Trap with slight sunset tint), odd (13 Steps of Maki developed blueish tint during the second half), missing frames (Okinawa Yakuza War), feature intentional manipulation (Modern Prostitution with high contrast b&w opening) or spectacularly great (Zatoichi Goes to the Fire Festival) that stick to mind. Lady Snowblood was forgettable from print perspective: nothing stood out from other good prints. The Criterion BD, on the other hand, looks very different from that standard look. Well, in the screencaptures at least.

I should add that the Arrow BD does not seem correct either. Colors and blacks are clearly too weak.

No theory, but it isn't just Toei. All the Japanese companies are hard to deal with.

As to Japanese companies being difficult to deal with, one reason is probably the bureaucracy. Japan is a hierachical society with tons of rules which will always be followed even if they make no sense. Just a few days ago a foreign professor in my university told me how she needed to get a 40 year old elementary school graduation certificate from her home country (from a school that doesn't exist anymore) before they'd hire her. She's got a PHD, but the rules say you need to provide elementary school graduation certificate too. No exceptions!

Also, Japanese companies still base business on human trust / human relationships to notable degree. It could take years to build trust and personal relationships between two companies. If the other company would later turn out unreliable, it would be considered the first company's own fault and a major shame: they were so fucking stupid that they started business with an unreliable partner. Well, at least this used to be the way of thinking, and I believe it still influences to some extent. It is often said (only) half jokingly that all Japanese business deals are made on golf courses or in restaurants. The official meetings are just to sign papers. This kind of business environment is not easy for foreign companies (outsiders).

[Maito Guy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Maito Guy]

As to Japanese companies being difficult to deal with, one reason is probably the bureaucracy. Japan is a hierachical society with tons of rules which will always be followed even if they make no sense. Just a few days ago a foreign pressor in my university told me how she needed to get a 40 year old elementary school graduation certificate from her home country (from a school that doesn't exist anymore) before they'd hire her. She's got a PHD, but the rules say you need to provide elementary school graduation certificate too. No exceptions!

Lol, unbelievable if you think about it, but sounds so typically Japanese to me. A friend of mine wanted and I think still wants to create a business in Japan for importing/exporting Austrian wine, but he actually got stuck at opening up a bank account over there. No problem within Europe (don't know about the US) but in Japan they want all kind of insurances and guarantees and what only god knows beforehand to just open up the account. The positive thing about this stubbornness is that there are clear rules and you know if you follow them you will certainly get what you want, but yeah, I guess it can get annoying sometimes ...

Kinda feel sorry for Arrow now because maybe they really hadn't much of a choice but I think I will cancel my preorder on Amazon too. Just don't want to waste money on an inferior looking version. And also despite quite liking the Sasori series they aren't really that much of personal favorites of mine.

[Keeth Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Keeth]

As to Japanese companies being difficult to deal with, one reason is probably the bureaucracy. Japan is a hierachical society with tons of rules which will always be followed even if they make no sense. Just a few days ago a foreign professor in my university told me how she needed to get a 40 year old elementary school graduation certificate from her home country (from a school that doesn't exist anymore) before they'd hire her. She's got a PHD, but the rules say you need to provide elementary school graduation certificate too. No exceptions!

Also, Japanese companies still base business on human trust / human relationships to notable degree. It could take years to build trust and personal relationships between two companies. If the other company would later turn out unreliable, it would be considered the first company's own fault and a major shame: they were so fucking stupid that they started business with an unreliable partner. Well, at least this used to be the way of thinking, and I believe it still influences to some extent. It is often said (only) half jokingly that all Japanese business deals are made on golf courses or in restaurants. The official meetings are just to sign papers. This kind of business environment is not easy for foreign companies (outsiders).

I watched a show about a guy wanting a coffee maker (I think?) made in Japan & he had to jump through hoops to prove to them that he & his product, etc. were up to their standards. He talked quite a bit about what you wrote.

I watched 'Beast Stable' last night & the scene of the woman looking through the manhole cover definitely does not have any wild colors in it. I think my dvd-r is sourced from a Japanese dvd. It looks pretty good which is why I wish I had not thrown away the dvd-r of Grudge Song because the MB dvd looks AWFUL.

[Sundance Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sundance]

Studio Canal


Pathe


Toei

I wonder how this scene looks on the Blu-Ray. Ian?!

[Derrick King Waterfall Puncher Find all posts View Profile Close Derrick King]

I doubt it as firstly they have access to the OCN, so why would they go with a low contrast print. Secondly there's a perfectly fine HD video currently on Amazon Jp, so i think that backs up this view.

It isn't about Toei using the low-contrast print, it is about them thinking this is the correct look of the film. If Arrow is telling the truth and the low-contrast prints they have been supplied with look like the screencaps, that means either Toei spent the money to create them to intentionally sabotage Arrow's release or, most likely, they think it should look blue and color timed the low-contrast prints to reflect that. So, odds are any release in the near future, even if taken from a new 4k scan of the original negative, will likely be timed blue (although, scans from the negative will not have the black crush, contrasty look one gets from using a low-contrast print, so any potential Japanese release from the o negative would be better in that regard)

I've only seen screencaptures from the Criterion BD so perhaps I should refrain from judging it, but my first reaction was a shock. I did see Lady Snowblood from a good 35mm print just a few months before the Criterion came out, and the BD does not match my impressions of the print at all. I'd be lying if I said I remember exactly how the print looked like, but that's actually the whole point. During the past few years I've seen hundreds of Japanese films from 35mm prints and I've become very familiar with the film look. It's the unusual looking prints, the ones that were poor (a pink print of The Street Fighter), unusual (Evil Dead Trap with slight sunset tint), odd (13 Steps of Maki developed blueish tint during the second half), missing frames (Okinawa Yakuza War), feature intentional manipulation (Modern Prostitution with high contrast b&w opening) or spectacularly great (Zatoichi Goes to the Fire Festival) that stick to mind. Lady Snowblood was forgettable from print perspective: nothing stood out from other good prints. The Criterion BD, on the other hand, looks very different from that standard look. Well, in the screencaptures at least.

I should add that the Arrow BD does not seem correct either. Colors and blacks are clearly too weak.

I can't speak to how it looks in relation to other films or prints of Lady Snowblood, or even if it reached the impossible 100% theatrical accuracy (something impossible when dealing with film prints because no two are exactly alike) but I'm just saying that watching the Criterion blu I didn't really notice any evident color issues. Skin tones weren't smurfed, etc. It looks really nice (save the occasional slight black crush or too contrasty look shot.)

Also, Japanese companies still base business on human trust / human relationships to notable degree. It could take years to build trust and personal relationships between two companies.

This must be why out of all the US companies, Janus/Criterion seems to be the one that best gets along with Toho. They've been in business with each other for nearly 60 years (although, even with that rumors are that the GODZILLA project was a massive pain in the ass for Criterion, but it was totally worth it.)

[Dom D Spoon! Find all posts View Profile Close Dom D]

If Arrow is telling the truth and the low-contrast prints they have been supplied with look like the screencaps, that means either Toei spent the money to create them to intentionally sabotage Arrow's release or, most likely, they think it should look blue and color timed the low-contrast prints to reflect that.

You have to assume Arrows telling the truth but surely a more likely explanation is that rather than Toei believing this is the way that the film is suppossed to or was out to sabotage Arrow is that someone at the studio made a creative decision to update the look of the film. That smeary green mess in the Arrow is very much the modern style (well 5 years back it was anyway).

[Ian Jane Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Ian Jane]

Grudge Song:

[Ian Jane Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Ian Jane]

Female Prison Scorpion:

[Ian Jane Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Ian Jane]

I wonder how this scene looks on the Blu-Ray. Ian?!

Get me a time stamp and I'll do my best. Sorry, that might sound lazy, but I'm swamped right now, haha.

[Ian Jane Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Ian Jane]

I wonder how this scene looks on the Blu-Ray. Ian?!

Never mind, I found it!

[sukebanboy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sukebanboy]

This thread has made me want to revisit this series soon....

[Takuma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Takuma]

Thanks for the caps, Ian!

For those who have not seen the films or just don't remember how they looked like on DVD, let me post a few more screencaptures from Jailhouse 41 Toei DVD just to demonstrate the look.

















I find it almost impossible to believe that the filmmakers would go thru the trouble of creating a beautiful range of different colors for different scenes, and then color it all teal in the post production so that most of those colors disappear...

At least the sky won't look like piss as in their old version!

I think it's supposed to look like piss. The scene takes place during sunset if I recall correctly.

[Bogart Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bogart]

I think the BDs look good. I will be happy with them I think. Also I wont be running the films on BD and DVD on 2 screens side by side so I wont even notice any colour differences Its miles easier to get worked up via internet forums posting side by side screen grabs than it is in reality when youre watching at home.